Discussion of The Lord of the Rings
What follows is a hitherto unpublished give-and-take of The Lord of the Rings past times Gregory Glazov in addition to Stratford Caldecott. (And if Tolkien interests you, you lot mightiness also similar to choose a appear at Andrew Abela's article "Shire Economics".)
Glazov: Many thank you lot for sharing a lilliputian fourth dimension alongside us. The number that I am excited nearly in addition to wishing to explore alongside you lot concerns the nature of a spiritual book. In a BBC interview I heard a few years agone betwixt J.K. Rowling in addition to Stephen Fry, when they were discussing C.S. Lewis in addition to his mass The Magician's Nephew, Rowling said that she ever understood the pools betwixt the worlds to live a metaphor for books. This also translates into agreement the Wardrobe of The Lion, the W, in addition to the W, equally a metaphor for a book… What I similar nearly this metaphor is that it catches the fact that a mass is a vehicle that tin toilet transplant us into some other world, opened upward our eyes to things we've never seen before, allow us to percentage inward the risk of the protagonists, broaden our world view, nurture ourselves in addition to so render into our ain world enriched. I specially similar how inward The L, W in addition to W, the children, having befriended Aslan/Christ, are told that they would live returning to their ain world in addition to needing to larn to relate to him past times his squall inward this world in addition to so how their render to this world is depicted equally beingness attended alongside suspense in addition to a sense of adventure. C.S. Lewis thereby communicates really good that this same risk is opened upward to us readers to have got equally well, whereby the journeying to Narnia through his mass in addition to dorsum in 1 lawsuit again gives us fresh eyes to believe in addition to recognize the presence of Christ inward our ain lives in addition to live to a greater extent than fully in addition to adventurously alongside him. This I understand, but I'd similar to choose these insights deeper. What are some things that you lot mightiness similar to add together here?
Stratford: I similar Rowling's insight. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings is similar that likewise – really deliberately on the author's part, since the characters inward the story oft comment on the "tale" that they are in. The reader is hauled inward past times the ears, equally Sam is hauled inward through the window of Bag End inward the start of The Fellowship of the Ring. By "listening in" to the story he becomes personally involved, in addition to inward fact the whole journeying to Mordor in addition to dorsum is his risk equally much equally it is anyone's. Another instant worth remembering is when Frodo sees Lothlorien for the initiative of all time. Tolkien, in addition to I think Lewis, believed that inward a fairy story, real, created things such equally metal, horses, in addition to trees are manifested inward glory (Excalibur, Anduril, Pegasus, Shadowfax, Yggdrasil, Telperion). The final result is to give a glimpse of the existent world transfigured (or, equally Tolkien would say, “enchanted”). Thus the reader of The Lord of the Rings, entering the imaginative world of the novel, may have got a similar experience to that of a grapheme entering 1 of those "pools" inward the Wood, or (one of my favourite scenes) Frodo entering the Elvish landscape of Lothlorien: “A calorie-free was upon it for which his linguistic communication had no name. All that he saw was shapely, but the shapes seemed at in 1 lawsuit clear cut, equally if they had been initiative of all conceived in addition to drawn at the regain of his eyes, in addition to ancient equally if they had endured for ever.” That is the experience nosotros have, equally readers, when nosotros read a expert fairy tale, in addition to why nosotros maintain coming dorsum for to a greater extent than – why nosotros honor it a wholesome in addition to healing experience to do so.
Glazov: Many thank you lot for sharing a lilliputian fourth dimension alongside us. The number that I am excited nearly in addition to wishing to explore alongside you lot concerns the nature of a spiritual book. In a BBC interview I heard a few years agone betwixt J.K. Rowling in addition to Stephen Fry, when they were discussing C.S. Lewis in addition to his mass The Magician's Nephew, Rowling said that she ever understood the pools betwixt the worlds to live a metaphor for books. This also translates into agreement the Wardrobe of The Lion, the W, in addition to the W, equally a metaphor for a book… What I similar nearly this metaphor is that it catches the fact that a mass is a vehicle that tin toilet transplant us into some other world, opened upward our eyes to things we've never seen before, allow us to percentage inward the risk of the protagonists, broaden our world view, nurture ourselves in addition to so render into our ain world enriched. I specially similar how inward The L, W in addition to W, the children, having befriended Aslan/Christ, are told that they would live returning to their ain world in addition to needing to larn to relate to him past times his squall inward this world in addition to so how their render to this world is depicted equally beingness attended alongside suspense in addition to a sense of adventure. C.S. Lewis thereby communicates really good that this same risk is opened upward to us readers to have got equally well, whereby the journeying to Narnia through his mass in addition to dorsum in 1 lawsuit again gives us fresh eyes to believe in addition to recognize the presence of Christ inward our ain lives in addition to live to a greater extent than fully in addition to adventurously alongside him. This I understand, but I'd similar to choose these insights deeper. What are some things that you lot mightiness similar to add together here?
Stratford: I similar Rowling's insight. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings is similar that likewise – really deliberately on the author's part, since the characters inward the story oft comment on the "tale" that they are in. The reader is hauled inward past times the ears, equally Sam is hauled inward through the window of Bag End inward the start of The Fellowship of the Ring. By "listening in" to the story he becomes personally involved, in addition to inward fact the whole journeying to Mordor in addition to dorsum is his risk equally much equally it is anyone's. Another instant worth remembering is when Frodo sees Lothlorien for the initiative of all time. Tolkien, in addition to I think Lewis, believed that inward a fairy story, real, created things such equally metal, horses, in addition to trees are manifested inward glory (Excalibur, Anduril, Pegasus, Shadowfax, Yggdrasil, Telperion). The final result is to give a glimpse of the existent world transfigured (or, equally Tolkien would say, “enchanted”). Thus the reader of The Lord of the Rings, entering the imaginative world of the novel, may have got a similar experience to that of a grapheme entering 1 of those "pools" inward the Wood, or (one of my favourite scenes) Frodo entering the Elvish landscape of Lothlorien: “A calorie-free was upon it for which his linguistic communication had no name. All that he saw was shapely, but the shapes seemed at in 1 lawsuit clear cut, equally if they had been initiative of all conceived in addition to drawn at the regain of his eyes, in addition to ancient equally if they had endured for ever.” That is the experience nosotros have, equally readers, when nosotros read a expert fairy tale, in addition to why nosotros maintain coming dorsum for to a greater extent than – why nosotros honor it a wholesome in addition to healing experience to do so.
In 1 of his letters (Letter 131 inward the published collection), Tolkien says a fleck to a greater extent than nearly that "light" that shines inside a expert story. He calls it “the calorie-free of fine art undivorced from reason, that sees things both scientifically (or philosophically) in addition to imaginatively (or subcreatively) in addition to ‘says that they are good’ – equally beautiful.” It is the calorie-free that takes us dorsum to the really Beginning of things. That's what his "Elves" are all about. And the of import signal is that when Frodo leaves Lothlorien – equally nosotros acquire out the novel, past times setting it aside or coming to the halt – he volition inward some sense ever stay there, out of time. "When he had gone in addition to passed in 1 lawsuit again into the outer world, silent Frodo the wanderer from the Shire would walk there, upon the grass amidst elanor in addition to niphredil inward fair Lothlorien."
Glazov: I have got been researching in addition to writing a curt booklet on the prayers Glory Be in addition to the Gloria recently. One of my interests is to empathize in addition to explicate why nosotros should give glory to God non just for what was inward the start or what volition live forever in addition to ever but for what is now, given that the "now" is so intertwined alongside sorrow in addition to grief. As a biblical scholar I am aware of how psalm scholars separate the psalms into psalms of orientation (those that praise God for the goods of creation), disorientation (the laments) in addition to reorienation (the praises in addition to thanksgivings that plough over the phases of disorientation). As a Catholic, I relate these 3 phases to the 3 traditional groupings of the mysteries of the Rosary: the Joyful, the Sorrowful in addition to the Glorious. I intuit that the Christian tradition has hither defined glory past times distinguishing it from joy through the interposition of sorrow. This is to state that Glory involves a transformation or transfiguration of reality inward a way that presupposes sorrow in addition to transcends it. The challenge is to explicate how this transpires organically, inward life. How does sorrow plough to glory? In the course of report of preparing this booklet I was also underlining all the glory motifs I could honor inward the works of Tolkien in addition to Lewis, which are many. One theme that I was really interested to empathize occurred inward the initial pages of The Silmarillion describing the creation of the world. There, each angel sings a theme that God gave him to sing alongside a persuasion to intertwining it alongside others so equally to brand a neat music. The music foreshadows the history of the world. Morgoth, the fallen angel or Satan, seeks to mar the music in addition to destroy the harmony. In a serial of movements, God works to function Morgoth's disharmony into a greater harmony: "And it seemed at lastly that at that spot were 2 musics progressing at 1 fourth dimension before the spot of Iluvatar, in addition to they were utterly at variance. The 1 was deep in addition to broad in addition to beautiful, but tedious in addition to blended alongside an immeasurable sorrow, from which its beauty chiefly came. The other... essayed to drown the other music past times the violence of its voice, but it seemed that its most triumphant notes were taken past times the other in addition to woven into its ain solemn pattern... into the devising of things to a greater extent than wonderful, which he (that attempteth the alteration) hath non imagined."
Glazov: I have got been researching in addition to writing a curt booklet on the prayers Glory Be in addition to the Gloria recently. One of my interests is to empathize in addition to explicate why nosotros should give glory to God non just for what was inward the start or what volition live forever in addition to ever but for what is now, given that the "now" is so intertwined alongside sorrow in addition to grief. As a biblical scholar I am aware of how psalm scholars separate the psalms into psalms of orientation (those that praise God for the goods of creation), disorientation (the laments) in addition to reorienation (the praises in addition to thanksgivings that plough over the phases of disorientation). As a Catholic, I relate these 3 phases to the 3 traditional groupings of the mysteries of the Rosary: the Joyful, the Sorrowful in addition to the Glorious. I intuit that the Christian tradition has hither defined glory past times distinguishing it from joy through the interposition of sorrow. This is to state that Glory involves a transformation or transfiguration of reality inward a way that presupposes sorrow in addition to transcends it. The challenge is to explicate how this transpires organically, inward life. How does sorrow plough to glory? In the course of report of preparing this booklet I was also underlining all the glory motifs I could honor inward the works of Tolkien in addition to Lewis, which are many. One theme that I was really interested to empathize occurred inward the initial pages of The Silmarillion describing the creation of the world. There, each angel sings a theme that God gave him to sing alongside a persuasion to intertwining it alongside others so equally to brand a neat music. The music foreshadows the history of the world. Morgoth, the fallen angel or Satan, seeks to mar the music in addition to destroy the harmony. In a serial of movements, God works to function Morgoth's disharmony into a greater harmony: "And it seemed at lastly that at that spot were 2 musics progressing at 1 fourth dimension before the spot of Iluvatar, in addition to they were utterly at variance. The 1 was deep in addition to broad in addition to beautiful, but tedious in addition to blended alongside an immeasurable sorrow, from which its beauty chiefly came. The other... essayed to drown the other music past times the violence of its voice, but it seemed that its most triumphant notes were taken past times the other in addition to woven into its ain solemn pattern... into the devising of things to a greater extent than wonderful, which he (that attempteth the alteration) hath non imagined."
So are nosotros – in addition to how are nosotros – to interpret the perception of the calorie-free that shines inside a expert story into a perception that the same transpires inward our ain world in addition to lives? How does sorrow growth beauty in addition to Pb to glory? And equally for moving out of time, how is this motility to live mediated? What are some farther ways inward which Tolkien's stories illustrate these mysteries in addition to sustain us alongside promise inward the midst of sorrow?
Stratford: What Tolkien is trying to limited using mythopoeia is what Hans Urs von Balthasar calls the "theo-drama" based on the interplay of created in addition to uncreated freedom. The message of his story is that past times acting rightly nosotros melody ourselves to the beautiful music, nosotros go business office of it. By acting out of harmony alongside others, nosotros go business office of the choice music that he says is "loud, in addition to vain, in addition to endlessly repeated". In the end, whatever is of value inward the 2nd music is subsumed in addition to transfigured past times the initiative of all – evil tin toilet do cypher of itself, in addition to whatever it achieves past times marring the expert tin toilet live turned past times the expert into an chance to brand something "more wonderful". So "in everything God works for expert alongside those who dearest him" (Romans 8:28). Tolkien shows us how to act, how to "work for good", through the way his characters behave. For illustration inward The Lord of the Rings, the diverse members of the Fellowship manage to deed alongside courage in addition to kindness in addition to wisdom fifty-fifty when evil appears to live triumphing all around them. Aragorn's really squall (in Elvish "Estel") agency "Hope", in addition to he demonstrates the variety of heroism that is based on doing the correct affair because it is right, fifty-fifty when nosotros have got no thought how it volition plough out – a promise founded non on some prediction of advantages to live gained, but on the nature of things. This is the opposite of modern moral thinking based on "consequentialism".
Stratford: What Tolkien is trying to limited using mythopoeia is what Hans Urs von Balthasar calls the "theo-drama" based on the interplay of created in addition to uncreated freedom. The message of his story is that past times acting rightly nosotros melody ourselves to the beautiful music, nosotros go business office of it. By acting out of harmony alongside others, nosotros go business office of the choice music that he says is "loud, in addition to vain, in addition to endlessly repeated". In the end, whatever is of value inward the 2nd music is subsumed in addition to transfigured past times the initiative of all – evil tin toilet do cypher of itself, in addition to whatever it achieves past times marring the expert tin toilet live turned past times the expert into an chance to brand something "more wonderful". So "in everything God works for expert alongside those who dearest him" (Romans 8:28). Tolkien shows us how to act, how to "work for good", through the way his characters behave. For illustration inward The Lord of the Rings, the diverse members of the Fellowship manage to deed alongside courage in addition to kindness in addition to wisdom fifty-fifty when evil appears to live triumphing all around them. Aragorn's really squall (in Elvish "Estel") agency "Hope", in addition to he demonstrates the variety of heroism that is based on doing the correct affair because it is right, fifty-fifty when nosotros have got no thought how it volition plough out – a promise founded non on some prediction of advantages to live gained, but on the nature of things. This is the opposite of modern moral thinking based on "consequentialism".
At the halt of the passage you lot quoted, God stands upward in addition to brings the Music to an halt alongside a unmarried chord "deeper than the Abyss, higher than the Firmament". That could live a reference to the Last Judgment, which is brought nearly through the Incarnation in addition to Passion of Christ, for that is the supreme instance of bringing expert out of evil. This, the terminal chord, integrates all the notes in addition to themes of the Music, but inward a way that could non have got been predicted past times Angels, Elves or Men. It is worth noting that Tolkien genuinely builds a prophecy of the Incarnation into the story of Finrod in addition to Andreth (published posthumously), inward which he speaks of the possiblily that Eru, the One God, mightiness go inward into the creation in addition to heal it from within. So Tolkien's mythopoetic concern human relationship is consistent alongside the Christian response to the employment of evil. Jesus, on the Cross, accepts all that evil tin toilet throw at him, fifty-fifty allows himself to live killed, but turns it all into a story of love. In the end, dearest proves stronger. Sorrow is turned to beauty in addition to joy.
Glazov: Yes, you lot told me nearly this piece, the Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth, in addition to having read it, it remains for me 1 of the most consoling in addition to hope-sustaining texts I know, since it is all nearly the grounds for promise inward the nature of things, in addition to also nearly the consolatory value of words in addition to conversation, but I also want to limited wonder over this lastly insight of yours into the deeper pregnant of that phrase "deeper than the Abyss, higher than the Firmament" inward its context in addition to for explaining how it may live understood inward a way that does non integrate evil into the terminal harmony in addition to does non brand the ultimate harmony theme upon evil but allows evil to live an occasion for goodness to scope deeper in addition to higher levels. And I tin toilet regard how this explanation tin toilet also have got profound pastoral in addition to vocational worth. But allow us plough to a related concern the appear of which I don't notice really clearly inward Tolkien but which interests me, namely prayer. Now I know that from 1 perspective, Tolkien's function is a fictional, secondary world, in addition to is, equally such, an exercise inward creative imagination. On the other hand, it is a concerted exercise on his business office inward agreement the nature of our existence. Now given this 2nd point, why is it that his characters hardly ever pray, relieve mayhap when they sing what may live taken equally hymns? If human beings in addition to elves are the children of Eru, the One God, why is at that spot so lilliputian consciously manifest spiritual communication betwixt them inward the realm of prayer? Even inward our ain world, way before Abraham, inward the most primitive of times, "men silent called upon the squall of God" (Gen 4:26). But inward Tolkien such prayers are at a minimum. How come? What are the lessons to live drawn from this equally to his views on prayer in addition to on the way nosotros should behavior our ain lives?
Stratford: Given the way thousands of Tolkien fans clothes upward equally Elves in addition to Wizards 1 must live grateful that he wasn't likewise explicit nearly religious practices inward Middle-earth. One mightiness past times at nowadays have got a number of Ring-inspired churches. I doubt, though, that he would have got considered that equally a possibility patch he was genuinely writing the books inward the 1940s. He tells us somewhere that inward the pre-Christian, fifty-fifty pre-Judaic era where his stories are set, the One God was so “remote” that prayer to him would have got seemed impossible. You could only approach the Divine through the intermediary beings, the Valar, who “knew him” face-to-face. The Elves venerated in addition to invoked Elbereth, for example, fifty-fifty though they were aware that she was a created being. But "prayer" inward the explicit sense of words or thoughts addressed to Eru would only go possible when Eru began to reveal himself to Men inward grooming for his ain Incarnation. In that sense the world of Middle-earth is a world inward a ground of "waiting" for God, without fully realizing what it is waiting for – without knowing whatever variety of Covenant. The only portrayal of a "pagan" faith amidst Men inward Tolkien's function is the cult of Sauron inward Numenor, which was apparently a variety of Satanism.
Glazov: Yes, you lot told me nearly this piece, the Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth, in addition to having read it, it remains for me 1 of the most consoling in addition to hope-sustaining texts I know, since it is all nearly the grounds for promise inward the nature of things, in addition to also nearly the consolatory value of words in addition to conversation, but I also want to limited wonder over this lastly insight of yours into the deeper pregnant of that phrase "deeper than the Abyss, higher than the Firmament" inward its context in addition to for explaining how it may live understood inward a way that does non integrate evil into the terminal harmony in addition to does non brand the ultimate harmony theme upon evil but allows evil to live an occasion for goodness to scope deeper in addition to higher levels. And I tin toilet regard how this explanation tin toilet also have got profound pastoral in addition to vocational worth. But allow us plough to a related concern the appear of which I don't notice really clearly inward Tolkien but which interests me, namely prayer. Now I know that from 1 perspective, Tolkien's function is a fictional, secondary world, in addition to is, equally such, an exercise inward creative imagination. On the other hand, it is a concerted exercise on his business office inward agreement the nature of our existence. Now given this 2nd point, why is it that his characters hardly ever pray, relieve mayhap when they sing what may live taken equally hymns? If human beings in addition to elves are the children of Eru, the One God, why is at that spot so lilliputian consciously manifest spiritual communication betwixt them inward the realm of prayer? Even inward our ain world, way before Abraham, inward the most primitive of times, "men silent called upon the squall of God" (Gen 4:26). But inward Tolkien such prayers are at a minimum. How come? What are the lessons to live drawn from this equally to his views on prayer in addition to on the way nosotros should behavior our ain lives?
Stratford: Given the way thousands of Tolkien fans clothes upward equally Elves in addition to Wizards 1 must live grateful that he wasn't likewise explicit nearly religious practices inward Middle-earth. One mightiness past times at nowadays have got a number of Ring-inspired churches. I doubt, though, that he would have got considered that equally a possibility patch he was genuinely writing the books inward the 1940s. He tells us somewhere that inward the pre-Christian, fifty-fifty pre-Judaic era where his stories are set, the One God was so “remote” that prayer to him would have got seemed impossible. You could only approach the Divine through the intermediary beings, the Valar, who “knew him” face-to-face. The Elves venerated in addition to invoked Elbereth, for example, fifty-fifty though they were aware that she was a created being. But "prayer" inward the explicit sense of words or thoughts addressed to Eru would only go possible when Eru began to reveal himself to Men inward grooming for his ain Incarnation. In that sense the world of Middle-earth is a world inward a ground of "waiting" for God, without fully realizing what it is waiting for – without knowing whatever variety of Covenant. The only portrayal of a "pagan" faith amidst Men inward Tolkien's function is the cult of Sauron inward Numenor, which was apparently a variety of Satanism.
Now all of this strikes us equally most peculiar when nosotros come upward to the Shire, which resembles the rural England of Tolkien's childhood. Hobbiton is an English linguistic communication hamlet alongside a pub but no parish church building – hardly possible! Yet past times omitting all reference to a faith amidst the Hobbits, Tolkien is able to gain quite an effective commentary on post-Christian, "postmodern" Britain – if you lot choose the Scouring of the Shire into concern human relationship along alongside the Long-Expected Party. The philosopher Nicholas Boyle has fifty-fifty suggested that the Shire represents (for Tolkien) an England deprived of Catholic Christianity past times the Reformation, alongside the Scouring a prophecy of the render of the Old Faith. I think that is pushing things a bit! To honor Tolkien's views on prayer in addition to the Christian life at that spot are 2 places nosotros tin toilet look. Firstly, equally a Catholic manful individual parent he could verbalize quite openly nearly prayer in addition to the spiritual life inward letters to his children. Many of import letters on this bailiwick (for illustration Letter 250, which is partly nearly his dearest for the Eucharist, in addition to Letter 310, nearly the pregnant of life) are published inward the official collection. Secondly, nosotros tin toilet appear inside the mass itself, provided nosotros appear beneath the surface. In his well-known 1953 missive of the alphabet to Robert Murray, Tolkien says it is BECAUSE the function is Catholic that he has cutting out "practically all references to anything similar 'religion', to cults or practices, inward the imaginary world. For the religious chemical constituent is absorbed into the story in addition to its symbolism." So nosotros should non appear to honor the Lord's Prayer inward Elvish, but nosotros tin toilet honor Tolkien's agreement of the "religious element" of life embedded inward the symbolism in addition to the story.
Glazov: There is something jarring to me silent nearly the absorption of the religious chemical constituent (of things similar prayer) into the story in addition to its symbolism, but it is addressed past times agreement that this absorption in addition to absence were the final result of a witting intention in addition to revision on Tolkien's business office in addition to that the search for what he thought nearly this chemical constituent is improve satisfied inward his letters in addition to explanations of the symbolism of his function than inward his work. Perhaps nosotros should plough to Tolkien himself inward bringing this conversation to a close. Could nosotros synthesize what nosotros spoke nearly past times clarifying the argue why you lot gave Gandalf's epithet, "the keeper of the undercover fire" to Tolkien inward your mass nearly him? I have got a few hunches, 1 of them beingness the identification inward Tolkien's writings of Gandalf alongside the angel Olorin who, before his incarnation equally Gandalf, would frequent men in addition to inspire them alongside faith in addition to promise without revealing himself to them, in addition to whose squall is connected alongside the concepts of "dream" in addition to "artistic imagination." Would it live correct to connect him alongside the keeper of that "light" you lot spoke of before that shines inside a expert story, “the calorie-free of fine art undivorced from reason, that sees things both scientifically (or philosophically) in addition to imaginatively (or subcreatively)" in addition to says that they are expert in addition to beautiful – the calorie-free that takes us dorsum to the really Beginning of things? That burn or calorie-free that Gandalf seeks to sustain inward Tolkien's world, Tolkien is dedicated to inward ours. But what Tolkien is dedicated to is illuminating the salvific importance of the "light of fine art undivorced from reason" that shines inward expert stories. If this is ok, I'd at nowadays similar to brand a huge bound in addition to propose that the humble hobbits inward Tolkien's world, to whom few but Gandalf pay attention, correspond inward some way inward our world to expert stories, faerie to whom few of the wise of this world pay serious attention, but at a severe cost. Taking the analogy farther would propose that the salvation of the world depends inward large mensurate on theologians recognizing the key exercise that humble expert fairy stories have got to play inward bringing humanity onto the winning side of the expert inward its battle vs evil. I haven't said this really well. Can you lot clarify it?
Stratford: Influenza A virus subtype H5N1 servant of the Secret Fire would live to a greater extent than appropriate than "keeper", in addition to I think is what I hinted. The Fire is alongside God, in addition to kept past times Him alone. Ultimately, it is none other than the Holy Spirit. So I guess I would brand a distinction betwixt the Fire in addition to the calorie-free nosotros are speaking of. The Fire is the ability of making real. When Melkor sought to do a world independently of God, he needed the Secret Fire to acquire inward possible, but "he found non the Fire, for it is alongside Iluvatar". Without the Fire, all he could do was re-create in addition to spoil. The calorie-free of "art undivorced from reason" is I suppose a variety of radiance from the Fire, or a reflection of it, non the Fire itself. Here Verlyn Flieger's mass Splintered Light would live most helpful to read. Notice that Tolkien says it is a calorie-free "that sees", in addition to so it must also live a variety of primordial consciousness. (Another of the Inklings, Owen Barfield, would have got appreciated that, since his large theme was the development of consciousness.) That lilliputian quote nosotros are discussing, from a footnote inward Letter 131, is really condensed. The Light or consciousness of Valinor enables us to "see things... scientifically (or philosophically)", to imagine them past times seeing them "sub-creatively", AND to recognize them equally beautiful in addition to good. Tolkien associates the Fall alongside the "divorce" of the initiative of all two, which he calls argue in addition to art, in addition to implies that in 1 lawsuit that divorce has taken house inward our consciousness, nosotros tin toilet no longer regard things inward the way the Creator sees them, equally "beautiful". (A connector could live made hither alongside what Hans Urs von Balthasar said nearly the loss of a sense of the importance in addition to pregnant of beauty inward the modern world.)
Glazov: There is something jarring to me silent nearly the absorption of the religious chemical constituent (of things similar prayer) into the story in addition to its symbolism, but it is addressed past times agreement that this absorption in addition to absence were the final result of a witting intention in addition to revision on Tolkien's business office in addition to that the search for what he thought nearly this chemical constituent is improve satisfied inward his letters in addition to explanations of the symbolism of his function than inward his work. Perhaps nosotros should plough to Tolkien himself inward bringing this conversation to a close. Could nosotros synthesize what nosotros spoke nearly past times clarifying the argue why you lot gave Gandalf's epithet, "the keeper of the undercover fire" to Tolkien inward your mass nearly him? I have got a few hunches, 1 of them beingness the identification inward Tolkien's writings of Gandalf alongside the angel Olorin who, before his incarnation equally Gandalf, would frequent men in addition to inspire them alongside faith in addition to promise without revealing himself to them, in addition to whose squall is connected alongside the concepts of "dream" in addition to "artistic imagination." Would it live correct to connect him alongside the keeper of that "light" you lot spoke of before that shines inside a expert story, “the calorie-free of fine art undivorced from reason, that sees things both scientifically (or philosophically) in addition to imaginatively (or subcreatively)" in addition to says that they are expert in addition to beautiful – the calorie-free that takes us dorsum to the really Beginning of things? That burn or calorie-free that Gandalf seeks to sustain inward Tolkien's world, Tolkien is dedicated to inward ours. But what Tolkien is dedicated to is illuminating the salvific importance of the "light of fine art undivorced from reason" that shines inward expert stories. If this is ok, I'd at nowadays similar to brand a huge bound in addition to propose that the humble hobbits inward Tolkien's world, to whom few but Gandalf pay attention, correspond inward some way inward our world to expert stories, faerie to whom few of the wise of this world pay serious attention, but at a severe cost. Taking the analogy farther would propose that the salvation of the world depends inward large mensurate on theologians recognizing the key exercise that humble expert fairy stories have got to play inward bringing humanity onto the winning side of the expert inward its battle vs evil. I haven't said this really well. Can you lot clarify it?
Stratford: Influenza A virus subtype H5N1 servant of the Secret Fire would live to a greater extent than appropriate than "keeper", in addition to I think is what I hinted. The Fire is alongside God, in addition to kept past times Him alone. Ultimately, it is none other than the Holy Spirit. So I guess I would brand a distinction betwixt the Fire in addition to the calorie-free nosotros are speaking of. The Fire is the ability of making real. When Melkor sought to do a world independently of God, he needed the Secret Fire to acquire inward possible, but "he found non the Fire, for it is alongside Iluvatar". Without the Fire, all he could do was re-create in addition to spoil. The calorie-free of "art undivorced from reason" is I suppose a variety of radiance from the Fire, or a reflection of it, non the Fire itself. Here Verlyn Flieger's mass Splintered Light would live most helpful to read. Notice that Tolkien says it is a calorie-free "that sees", in addition to so it must also live a variety of primordial consciousness. (Another of the Inklings, Owen Barfield, would have got appreciated that, since his large theme was the development of consciousness.) That lilliputian quote nosotros are discussing, from a footnote inward Letter 131, is really condensed. The Light or consciousness of Valinor enables us to "see things... scientifically (or philosophically)", to imagine them past times seeing them "sub-creatively", AND to recognize them equally beautiful in addition to good. Tolkien associates the Fall alongside the "divorce" of the initiative of all two, which he calls argue in addition to art, in addition to implies that in 1 lawsuit that divorce has taken house inward our consciousness, nosotros tin toilet no longer regard things inward the way the Creator sees them, equally "beautiful". (A connector could live made hither alongside what Hans Urs von Balthasar said nearly the loss of a sense of the importance in addition to pregnant of beauty inward the modern world.)
So I would telephone band Tolkien a "keeper", if you lot like, of the Light of Valinor inward the sense that his function was intended to heal that divorce, to reawaken that primordial consciousness inward his readers. In fact dorsum inward 1916 he fifty-fifty wrote inward 1 of his letters nearly his mission equally a author beingness to "rekindle an sometime calorie-free inward the world". He was writing to 1 of a grouping of schoolfriends, who felt they had been collectively granted "some spark of fire" to kindle that light. It turned out to live true, in addition to Tolkien was the 1 who carried the spark, or through whom a glimpse of that calorie-free was passed on to us. You are quite right. The Hobbits in addition to their stories embody the "old light" that is inward danger of dying out inward the world – just equally much equally the Elves do. In fact the Elves stand upward for it to the Hobbits, in addition to the Hobbits stand upward for it to us, because they are closer to us than the Elves are. We acquire drawn into the story through the Hobbits, in addition to alongside the Hobbits nosotros are changed past times their experiences. We start to live able to regard the Elvish light.
Theologians ask to regard that they can't assist us past times using "reason" divorced from "art". Unless their function is imaginative equally good equally rational they won't live able to exhibit us the calorie-free that comes from the Creator.
Glazov: Perhaps this is a expert house to halt a conversation on the calorie-free in addition to glory to live found inward our world through the mediation of fairy stories in addition to imaginative literature. What you lot state suggests that it mightiness non live inappropriate to commence a gentle drive for Tolkien's beatification in addition to mayhap canonization, who knows?, that could start alongside a collection of testimonies to the spiritual nourishment that he may have got provided to thousands of people, inward ways analogous to those of Lewis in addition to Newman. Are at that spot whatever hearts in addition to minds inward the hierarchy who would live positively responsive to such a want in addition to credit it? Von Balthasar would have got been 1 of them were he silent alive. You likely know of others. Do you lot think it's a worthwhile venture?
Stratford: I would dearest to live able to state yes, in addition to I for sure believe that Tolkien must live inward heaven. The affect of his books cannot live overestimated, in addition to he was instrumental inward the conversion of C.S. Lewis, in addition to thence at to the lowest degree indirectly inward the conversion of many others. I think many Catholics would attribute their conversion inward business office to the influence of his writings on their imaginations, making goodness in addition to providence to a greater extent than intelligible to them – myself included. But at that spot are many saints inward sky who were never formally canonized in addition to never volition be. The procedure of canonization is extremely complex inward cases similar this, in addition to I am non sure it would fifty-fifty live a expert thought to seek to acquire it started. Something similar has been mooted from fourth dimension to fourth dimension nearly Chesterton, because he inspires neat devotion in addition to his writings are so total of Christian wisdom. In Chesterton's instance it would almost live easier, since his life was explicitly devoted to defending Catholic faith, in addition to at that spot is plenty of testimony to his personal virtues. But fifty-fifty at that spot the stimulate for canonization has non fifty-fifty been started, in addition to may never be. Tolkien is to a greater extent than complicated, fifty-fifty past times his ain account. And who would give testimony to his holiness? His colleagues were sometimes bitchy nearly him, his theater unit of measurement likely had mixed feelings in addition to inward whatever instance would non want to encourage a religious "cult" around him. That leaves the fans, who admittedly acquire out lilliputian tokens in addition to symbols of their dearest in addition to votive offerings on his grave inward Oxford (I have got noticed a woollen eagle, a sheep, scraps of newspaper inscribed inward Elvish, rosary beads, activity figures...). But the Church would want to a greater extent than than that. Influenza A virus subtype H5N1 few miracles would live needed, but initiative of all they would have got to flora heroic virtue. My ain persuasion is that nosotros should give thank you lot him inward prayer for what he has written, that nosotros should larn from him in addition to report him past times all means, praying for him in addition to his theater unit of measurement at All Souls, in addition to if nosotros are privately inclined to enquire for his intercession, equally someone nosotros believe to live unopen to God, at that spot is cypher to forestall it. No ask to worry that he doesn't have got his ain feast twenty-four hr current inward the calendar! I trust that does non disappoint you.
Glazov: No it doesn't disappoint me. It's rather plumbing equipment genuinely in addition to helps to accommodate Tolkien to his grapheme Niggle inward Leaf past times Niggle in a trend that suggests that that story, nearly the journeying through purgatory of a human dedicated to a painstaking realization of the prototype of his dreams/imagination, a Tree, but accomplishing no to a greater extent than than 1 of its leaves on concern human relationship of constant interruptions in addition to demands on his charity past times his neighbors, in addition to coming together lilliputian but contempt from the practical world, is autobiographical. It looks forrard to the struggle he anticipated nearly his career, reflecting existent worries nearly the sentence he would have but also a existent promise of intercession past times his guardian angel. It suggests that he had faith that his life line in addition to vision would serve equally a doorway in addition to a gate to the realization of his dreams beyond all mensurate inward heaven, where he would regard non only the leafage he sought to realize but the tree in addition to wood in addition to world to which it was attached. I don't know of a to a greater extent than consoling or inspiring text. I've given it to several people who I think are Niggles at middle in addition to it sustained in addition to consoled them beyond measure. On the other hand, it mightiness live plenty to think of Tolkien equally a Bilbo or a Frodo or a Sam, rather than equally a Gandalf, for the labours he undertook, in addition to non surrender the promise that, were the initiative of all 2 analogies to apply, the primal analogues of Gandalf inward our world mightiness commemorate his retentiveness past times proverb he deserves a publicly recognized house on a transportation to Valinor. But equally you've alluded to his family, so Sam-Christopher, mightiness live the improve justice of this equally you lot say. Would Christopher reciprocate his father's identification of him alongside Sam (I recall this from somewhere) past times identifying his dad alongside Frodo?
Stratford: I couldn't state anything nearly Christopher's acquaint view, since I don't know the theater unit of measurement good enough. It isn't slow to spot the author, allow lonely his son, alongside whatever 1 character. Tolkien senior at 1 signal tells us that he feels to a greater extent than similar Faramir than whatever of the other characters – in addition to he also identifies deeply alongside Beren, whose squall is inscribed on his tombstone along alongside "Luthien" referring to his wife. However, your query brings upward an interesting signal that takes us inward a way to the middle of the books. If you lot read the serial of volumes Christopher edited in addition to published after his father's conk nether the championship "History of Middle-earth", you lot regard that the father-son human relationship is closely related inward Tolkien's ain heed to the theme of storytelling. Over in addition to over in 1 lawsuit again inward the early on years of his project, after the First World War, he started, in addition to so abandoned, attempts to "frame" the stories that were to go The Silmarillion past times developing a plausible concern human relationship of the "transmission" of the tales. The terminal version of The Lord of the Rings, equally you lot know, purports to live a transcription of the "Red Book of Westmarch", which originates inward the memoir that Bilbo is seen to live writing inward Rivendell, which he so hands over to Frodo to complete, equally his "heir", in addition to Frodo inward plough passes on to Sam. In the posthumously published "Lost Tales", the 1 who collects the narratives is a human called Eriol, who comes to the isle of the Elves from the due north of what is at nowadays the European mainland in addition to hears the history of the Elves inward the "Cottage of Lost Play". The isle itself is subsequently conquered past times Eriol's sons (Hengest, Horsa, in addition to Heorrenda) in addition to becomes known equally "England". In Tolkien's subsequently writings, Eriol becomes Aelfwine ("Elf-friend", which you lot recollect is also 1 of the names given to Frodo), in addition to past times 1937 inward "The Lost Road" in addition to 1945 inward "The Notion Club Papers" Aelfwine is just 1 of a serial of father-son pairs, descended inward direct line from Elendil of Numenor, who percentage a variety of inherited retentiveness of the island's fall. Tolkien in addition to his boy Michael (who was born inward 1920) were haunted past times precisely such an apparent "memory", a dream of neat moving ridge drowning a light-green land. It would, of course, live neat if the boy who shared the dream had been Christopher, who was the 1 who went on to go the "heir", but however the thought of inherited retentiveness suggested to Tolkien a non-technological agency of fourth dimension go that would enable him to root his stories fifty-fifty to a greater extent than firmly inward the reality of our present.
The metaphor of the "leaf" in addition to the "tree" that you lot found inward Leaf past times Niggle is tremendously relevant to all this. Not only is each of Tolkien's tales just a leafage on the neat "Tree of Tales" that he tries to sketch out inward The Silmarillion, but he sees himself equally a leafage on a neat tree of ancestors, in addition to the stories are a way of connecting himself in addition to his people, the English, dorsum to Numenor/Atlantis, dorsum to the Elves, in addition to ultimately dorsum to the stars in addition to the initiative of all calorie-free of creation. It is a vision of history inward which nosotros are all connected through a neat story that begins inward God in addition to returns to him, woven of human liberty nether divine Providence, a tale of loss in addition to tragedy in addition to defeat that culminates inward eucatastrophe in addition to ends inward the healing of all sorrows. This is the landscape in addition to the reality that is revealed to Niggle after his death. Tolkien wrote inward 1 of his letters to his boy Michael inward the nighttime days of the Second World War, "The link betwixt manful individual parent in addition to boy is non only of the perishable flesh: it must have got something of aeternitas nearly it. There is a house called 'heaven' where the expert hither unfinished is completed; in addition to where the stories unwritten, in addition to the hopes unfulfilled, are continued. We may express joy together yet...."
Gregory Glazov teaches at Seton Hall Seminary inward New Jersey.
Theologians ask to regard that they can't assist us past times using "reason" divorced from "art". Unless their function is imaginative equally good equally rational they won't live able to exhibit us the calorie-free that comes from the Creator.
Glazov: Perhaps this is a expert house to halt a conversation on the calorie-free in addition to glory to live found inward our world through the mediation of fairy stories in addition to imaginative literature. What you lot state suggests that it mightiness non live inappropriate to commence a gentle drive for Tolkien's beatification in addition to mayhap canonization, who knows?, that could start alongside a collection of testimonies to the spiritual nourishment that he may have got provided to thousands of people, inward ways analogous to those of Lewis in addition to Newman. Are at that spot whatever hearts in addition to minds inward the hierarchy who would live positively responsive to such a want in addition to credit it? Von Balthasar would have got been 1 of them were he silent alive. You likely know of others. Do you lot think it's a worthwhile venture?
Stratford: I would dearest to live able to state yes, in addition to I for sure believe that Tolkien must live inward heaven. The affect of his books cannot live overestimated, in addition to he was instrumental inward the conversion of C.S. Lewis, in addition to thence at to the lowest degree indirectly inward the conversion of many others. I think many Catholics would attribute their conversion inward business office to the influence of his writings on their imaginations, making goodness in addition to providence to a greater extent than intelligible to them – myself included. But at that spot are many saints inward sky who were never formally canonized in addition to never volition be. The procedure of canonization is extremely complex inward cases similar this, in addition to I am non sure it would fifty-fifty live a expert thought to seek to acquire it started. Something similar has been mooted from fourth dimension to fourth dimension nearly Chesterton, because he inspires neat devotion in addition to his writings are so total of Christian wisdom. In Chesterton's instance it would almost live easier, since his life was explicitly devoted to defending Catholic faith, in addition to at that spot is plenty of testimony to his personal virtues. But fifty-fifty at that spot the stimulate for canonization has non fifty-fifty been started, in addition to may never be. Tolkien is to a greater extent than complicated, fifty-fifty past times his ain account. And who would give testimony to his holiness? His colleagues were sometimes bitchy nearly him, his theater unit of measurement likely had mixed feelings in addition to inward whatever instance would non want to encourage a religious "cult" around him. That leaves the fans, who admittedly acquire out lilliputian tokens in addition to symbols of their dearest in addition to votive offerings on his grave inward Oxford (I have got noticed a woollen eagle, a sheep, scraps of newspaper inscribed inward Elvish, rosary beads, activity figures...). But the Church would want to a greater extent than than that. Influenza A virus subtype H5N1 few miracles would live needed, but initiative of all they would have got to flora heroic virtue. My ain persuasion is that nosotros should give thank you lot him inward prayer for what he has written, that nosotros should larn from him in addition to report him past times all means, praying for him in addition to his theater unit of measurement at All Souls, in addition to if nosotros are privately inclined to enquire for his intercession, equally someone nosotros believe to live unopen to God, at that spot is cypher to forestall it. No ask to worry that he doesn't have got his ain feast twenty-four hr current inward the calendar! I trust that does non disappoint you.
Glazov: No it doesn't disappoint me. It's rather plumbing equipment genuinely in addition to helps to accommodate Tolkien to his grapheme Niggle inward Leaf past times Niggle in a trend that suggests that that story, nearly the journeying through purgatory of a human dedicated to a painstaking realization of the prototype of his dreams/imagination, a Tree, but accomplishing no to a greater extent than than 1 of its leaves on concern human relationship of constant interruptions in addition to demands on his charity past times his neighbors, in addition to coming together lilliputian but contempt from the practical world, is autobiographical. It looks forrard to the struggle he anticipated nearly his career, reflecting existent worries nearly the sentence he would have but also a existent promise of intercession past times his guardian angel. It suggests that he had faith that his life line in addition to vision would serve equally a doorway in addition to a gate to the realization of his dreams beyond all mensurate inward heaven, where he would regard non only the leafage he sought to realize but the tree in addition to wood in addition to world to which it was attached. I don't know of a to a greater extent than consoling or inspiring text. I've given it to several people who I think are Niggles at middle in addition to it sustained in addition to consoled them beyond measure. On the other hand, it mightiness live plenty to think of Tolkien equally a Bilbo or a Frodo or a Sam, rather than equally a Gandalf, for the labours he undertook, in addition to non surrender the promise that, were the initiative of all 2 analogies to apply, the primal analogues of Gandalf inward our world mightiness commemorate his retentiveness past times proverb he deserves a publicly recognized house on a transportation to Valinor. But equally you've alluded to his family, so Sam-Christopher, mightiness live the improve justice of this equally you lot say. Would Christopher reciprocate his father's identification of him alongside Sam (I recall this from somewhere) past times identifying his dad alongside Frodo?
Stratford: I couldn't state anything nearly Christopher's acquaint view, since I don't know the theater unit of measurement good enough. It isn't slow to spot the author, allow lonely his son, alongside whatever 1 character. Tolkien senior at 1 signal tells us that he feels to a greater extent than similar Faramir than whatever of the other characters – in addition to he also identifies deeply alongside Beren, whose squall is inscribed on his tombstone along alongside "Luthien" referring to his wife. However, your query brings upward an interesting signal that takes us inward a way to the middle of the books. If you lot read the serial of volumes Christopher edited in addition to published after his father's conk nether the championship "History of Middle-earth", you lot regard that the father-son human relationship is closely related inward Tolkien's ain heed to the theme of storytelling. Over in addition to over in 1 lawsuit again inward the early on years of his project, after the First World War, he started, in addition to so abandoned, attempts to "frame" the stories that were to go The Silmarillion past times developing a plausible concern human relationship of the "transmission" of the tales. The terminal version of The Lord of the Rings, equally you lot know, purports to live a transcription of the "Red Book of Westmarch", which originates inward the memoir that Bilbo is seen to live writing inward Rivendell, which he so hands over to Frodo to complete, equally his "heir", in addition to Frodo inward plough passes on to Sam. In the posthumously published "Lost Tales", the 1 who collects the narratives is a human called Eriol, who comes to the isle of the Elves from the due north of what is at nowadays the European mainland in addition to hears the history of the Elves inward the "Cottage of Lost Play". The isle itself is subsequently conquered past times Eriol's sons (Hengest, Horsa, in addition to Heorrenda) in addition to becomes known equally "England". In Tolkien's subsequently writings, Eriol becomes Aelfwine ("Elf-friend", which you lot recollect is also 1 of the names given to Frodo), in addition to past times 1937 inward "The Lost Road" in addition to 1945 inward "The Notion Club Papers" Aelfwine is just 1 of a serial of father-son pairs, descended inward direct line from Elendil of Numenor, who percentage a variety of inherited retentiveness of the island's fall. Tolkien in addition to his boy Michael (who was born inward 1920) were haunted past times precisely such an apparent "memory", a dream of neat moving ridge drowning a light-green land. It would, of course, live neat if the boy who shared the dream had been Christopher, who was the 1 who went on to go the "heir", but however the thought of inherited retentiveness suggested to Tolkien a non-technological agency of fourth dimension go that would enable him to root his stories fifty-fifty to a greater extent than firmly inward the reality of our present.
The metaphor of the "leaf" in addition to the "tree" that you lot found inward Leaf past times Niggle is tremendously relevant to all this. Not only is each of Tolkien's tales just a leafage on the neat "Tree of Tales" that he tries to sketch out inward The Silmarillion, but he sees himself equally a leafage on a neat tree of ancestors, in addition to the stories are a way of connecting himself in addition to his people, the English, dorsum to Numenor/Atlantis, dorsum to the Elves, in addition to ultimately dorsum to the stars in addition to the initiative of all calorie-free of creation. It is a vision of history inward which nosotros are all connected through a neat story that begins inward God in addition to returns to him, woven of human liberty nether divine Providence, a tale of loss in addition to tragedy in addition to defeat that culminates inward eucatastrophe in addition to ends inward the healing of all sorrows. This is the landscape in addition to the reality that is revealed to Niggle after his death. Tolkien wrote inward 1 of his letters to his boy Michael inward the nighttime days of the Second World War, "The link betwixt manful individual parent in addition to boy is non only of the perishable flesh: it must have got something of aeternitas nearly it. There is a house called 'heaven' where the expert hither unfinished is completed; in addition to where the stories unwritten, in addition to the hopes unfulfilled, are continued. We may express joy together yet...."
Gregory Glazov teaches at Seton Hall Seminary inward New Jersey.
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